<P>huh kinda reminds me of your arguement on the oil industry that you sat on the other side of the fence on <IMG src="http://www.websitetoolbox.com/images/boards/smilies/idea.gif" align=absMiddle border=0></P>

 

<P>huh kinda reminds me of your arguement on the oil industry that you sat on the other side of the fence on <IMG src="http://www.websitetoolbox.com/images/boards/smilies/idea.gif" align=absMiddle border=0></P>

I think the Moody Blues sang it best......"ride my see-saw"

 

<P>I would really like to see our major lobbiest groups such as DU and Delta to stop supporting the farm bill and to agressivly work to get wetland conservation legislation on a bill of its own... so that wetland conservation can be focused on.</P><P>

</P>Then there would be no focus. <br><br>Farmers in the PPR and duck production go hand in hand. <br>

 

<P>huh kinda reminds me of your arguement on the oil industry that you sat on the other side of the fence on <IMG src="http://www.websitetoolbox.com/images/boards/smilies/idea.gif" align=absMiddle border=0></P><P>

</P><P>No... its its nothing like that.&nbsp; I never suggested that the very profitable oil industry should simply be given more money.&nbsp; In fact I said that the more you mess with it the worse off you will end up. </P>

 

I don't know very many rich farmers. In fact, most farm on the side and work a regular 9-5 job. Then again, just down the street from me, I have two of the richest farmers in Ohio.<br><br>Even if I could make $90,000 a year on farming as a full time job, I wouldn't do it. In fact, unless you already own land, it would be tough to get started. <br><br><br><br>

 

<P>Not questioning you, but I would love to see where they got those numbers on farmers' income. I love how people think that farmers are "wealthy". We all owe money to the banks just like everyone else and nobody is getting their pockets lined. What few people&nbsp;understand is that the subsidies are given to us to keep commodity prices down. If there are no subsidies, food prices have to skyrocket (even more so than already) or farmers will go broke. No farmers = no food. An old saying of "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" comes to mind.</P>

 

<P>I'm a farmer and I ain't rich by a long shot. I'm not sure where they got their annual household income figures but I'd have to grow a couple patches of wacky weed to compare with that. As far as DU or Delta supporting the farm bill, you'd better hope they do. Unless you own&nbsp;an exclusive&nbsp;hunting area I'll bet you depend on a farmer to provide you with a place to hunt, not DU or Delta!</P>

 

<P>There is no system to be "used". No matter who it is, any one farmer is only allowed to collect a certain amount of government payment. End of story. You will find that most "wealthy farmers" make their money somewhere else. Some own excavating businesses or do some other type of contracting in another field. I know from first hand experience, being a farmer alone CANNOT support a house of 5 people. No $90,000 a year hear fellas'</P>

 

<P>I farm a little myself but my main living comes from selling equipment to the farmer.&nbsp;&nbsp;One thing you need to remember with the farmer vs. the man going to a job everyday is the risk&nbsp;of investment these guys are taking.&nbsp; The equipment&nbsp;cost is through the roof with most&nbsp;150 hp tractors starting over&nbsp;$100,000.00 andeasily climbing to $200,000.00&nbsp;and the smallest new combine and heads being well over $200,000.00. Hell most planters are around 100,000.00 themselves. And unlike the guys who own a 200,000.00&nbsp;house and get 30 years to pay for it, these guys only have 6 years to payoff this equipment.&nbsp;&nbsp;These guys have a lot more invested and at risk than the normal man that goes to work with nothing more invested than a $20,000 car and 4.00 fuel.&nbsp;&nbsp;Everyone likes to take shots at the "wealthy farmer" but these guys are taking a huge risk,&nbsp;&nbsp;when was the last time you lost 150,000 of cash&nbsp;in one year, not stocks or retirement, cash to provide for your family, to buy inputs for the following year., I bet&nbsp;most of these guys can tell you more than&nbsp;once in the last 15 years.&nbsp;Farmers these days are looked at as individuals and not what they really are, and that is small business owners, that if they do not manage their business effectively they will be driving to town to look for your job.&nbsp;Remember I am still someone that goes to work everyday to earn a paycheck like everyone else I just have a very close connection to the farming community and its not always as peachy as it looks from the outside. </P>

 

Farmers don't make any money , Give us all a break. Here is an example of just one in my area.<BR><BR>OWNS&nbsp;3200 acres given to him by his family Along with a VERY nice house, out buildings and silos that rival the co-ops.<BR><BR>Has new equipment every year.<BR>Buys up any and all land that goes to auction in the area at above avg. prices because of his greed to have more than anyone else.<BR><BR>Cuts down any and all tree lines and wind breaks to make the almighty dollar and does not give a&nbsp;crap about wildlife or conservation. <BR><BR>Owns 1 residental sub-division and getting ready to start another.<BR><BR>B****** and complains that the deer and turkey are costing him thousands of dollars per yr. But only gives permission to hunt on his land if you do work for him ( I do not hunt on his land ) as oppossed to eliminating his so called animal problem<BR><BR>And the final He recieved $ 590,000.00 in subsidies 2 yrs ago.<BR><BR>I am in ther const. business&nbsp; and I don't get free monies if it rains to much or to little that affects my work, or well below prime rate loans.<BR><BR>Yeah not all farmers make it but like the rest of us that run a business it is a risk and if this is what you choose to do for a living then suck it up and quit putting out you hand for more and playing on the sympathy of the american people.<BR><BR>The slogan " Farmers feed America" bull***<BR>The better one is "Save a Mallard, shoot a ******** "<BR><BR>

 

The $90K number probably comes from the AGI or another line on a tax return and like you and me it doesn't reflect what's in their pocket.&nbsp; Like highhopes pointed out they have big time expenses and big time cash flow, the gov't just looks at a line.&nbsp; Some big operations lease that equipment, they also take out loans to fund their annual operating expenses to put the crop in the ground.&nbsp; They insure their operating risk too - I can only imagine what crop insurance costs.<br><br>My father-in-law farmed 180 acres because he was raised a farmer.&nbsp; He worked 38 years in a foundry because he was a husband, a father of five and a farmer.&nbsp; He made every kid get a job when they were 16 to ease the burden and told them to get off the farm as soon as they could (he regretted that later).&nbsp; He always grinned about showing a loss on his tax return, there's some money there but not much.<br>

 

Save a mallard, shoot a ******. That's real mature there Tunny. There are plenty of programs for wildlife conservation. Are you saying that I am a bad person for clearing off woods to make more pasture to keep cattle on so you can go to the market and buy FARMER grown beef at a still reasonable price? Or if I clean out a fenceline to keep the limbs from falling out into my fields and make a little more space for a little more crop area, I am doing something wrong. I am willing to bet though that if I came to you and wanted to hire you to clean that fence row out or woods off that you would be more than happy to do it. <br><br>It sounds like your neighbor is a very fortunate man. Obviously there is a little money in his family somewhere. I am sure he is on a lease type of program with his equipment. I am also sure that he could not have collected that amount of subsidies 2 years ago. <br><br>Deer and turkeys DO cost thousands every year and it is a problem. I don't blame him for not letting you hunt, you sound like a real dick. It is his land and the last time I checked that entitled him to do with it as he pleases. <br><br>Farmers don't want sympathy. Respect would be nice. By respect I mean not complaining about taking up the highway with equipment, or the smell of my cattle barn and things such as that. We don't hold our hands out for anything. As I stated earlier, if subsidies aren't there, someone has to pay the difference or farmers go broke. <br><br>My final question to you Tunny is if farmers don't feed America, who does? It doesn't matter if you are a vegetarian or strictly buy organic or whatever, one way or the other, a farmer has somehow made it possible for you to set you whining @$$ down to a meal. Think about that a little before you complain about this topic anymore. <br>

 

<P>Also Tunny, on a side note, be glad that he is buying all that land. It is not out of greed that he is buying it. He is attempting to battle urban sprawl, you know where people that do nothing but complain about farmers move into the country and sue him for millions of dollars because the goldfish in their garden pond died. Thats the kind of things that put farmers out of business. Sounds like you might be that type.</P>

 

DuckFin, Wrong on all accounts.<br><br>1.Cutting down fence line&nbsp;wooded areas so you can make more money. How much more do you think you make by cutting down a 500' fence row 6' wide, just as I thought not much and the amount of displaced wildlife " priceless". As for the wooded area put a cost on that I have no idea, but when is enough, enough.<br><br>2.Cutting out fence rows so limbs don't fall in my field, get off of your fat a88 and pick them up, or does that 15 min twice a year cost you to much.<br><br>3. Yes he did collect that amount&nbsp;of subsidies , it was posted at the local post office along with all other subsidies paid to local farmers.<br><br>4. I don't blame him for not letting anyone hunt if it is for the right reasons, &nbsp;it his his land and he can do as he pleases , I have my own land and as for you calling me a dick , grow up.<br><br>5. I can use the same analogy if it wasn't for carpenters he would have no roof over your head to sit your " whining a** "down to eat&nbsp;. I can shoot , and grow my own food if needed and in most cases do just as you can build your own roof , so that comment is illogical as is my response.<br><br>6. He or you are buying land to curb urban flow. Great if that is the case but most of the time it is not. Farm land here sells for between 3 - 4 k per acre for ag. land My last property I bought I paid a FARMER TRYING TO CURB URBAN SPRAWL $ 14.560 per acre. That was&nbsp;MY decision to pay that but I am sure he had in mind to sell at that number with only the intentions of stopping urban sprawl. I don't begrudge him for selling at a higher amount than he paid and I don't care how much he made on it, I paid what I needed to to make my company a profit also.<br><br>7.Fibreduck's comments about leased equipment annual operating expenses, and crop ins. Well welcome to the real world of owning your own business. First try to get Liability Ins, as a general contractor, pay out ins. on all employees driving to and from work, workers, comp, SS match , health and retirement, unemployment, medicare and medicaid, Inland marine policies on the project you are building, Interest rates that are tied to the prime&nbsp;that were&nbsp;changing monthly and&nbsp; going up only up, rising fuel costs not only for myself and my equipment&nbsp; but also for employees&nbsp; who we gave allowances for if they drove more than 50 miles from home to a jobsite ( no off road diesel for my diesel equipment ), The minimum 20% down on any development project along with personal guarantees and your HOUSE as collateral not just your equipment and all of the other costs both you and I pay.<br><br>8. As I am sure the next comment by you is "don't you cut down trees when you develop property" , NO I buy vacant AG. land and plant trees when we are completed. I also have land in Southern Ohio and was approached by a timber company that offered a very sizable amount of money to log the land and guess what I said. <br><br>9. You started the s*** flying when you called me a dick and claimed I was the type who would sue because my&nbsp; goldfish died in a garden pond I am pretty sure you are the type that would sue a builder because he got a stuffy nose because the builder did not do things right and now there is mold in my house.<br>Pretty stupid and childish banter by both of us and I am sure we feel strongly about the points we both made. Play the cards you were dealt or get out of the game. <br><br>Oh yeah the cattle s*** odor does not&nbsp;bother me at all in fact I kind of like it , it reminds me of the outdoors, and as far as your or my machinery tying up the road for a short period of time , they will get over it.<br><br><br><br><br>

 

Few things&nbsp;I forgot to add Cell phones for the job superintendents, added health ins. premiums for all employees who's wives are of child bearing age, increased auto ins. rates for any moving violations, guess what that costs for 50 employees,&nbsp;my cost of leased vehicles (of which we don't lease anything except one truck) atty. fee's to write and review contracts, accountant for the endless quarterly tax filings&nbsp; and other BS paper work and the amount of LOSSES not only for cost overruns&nbsp;on my part and or for things I cannot control&nbsp;during bidding or building&nbsp; but also weather delays, disputes delays from supplies and subcontractors. <br>I don't claim to know anything about the hands on work of&nbsp;farming but I do know what it takes to run a business and all of the obstacles involved. So next time you need to think a little bit about what is on the other side of the fence line ( that is if it has not been cut down ) before you start making derogatory comments about me or anyone else.<br><br>Two jokes from a friend who farms and knows what my opinions are and agrees on some aspects of them.<br><br>Farmers have a 4 round rotation<br>corn, beans wheat, Florida<br><br>John Deere just came out with a new tractor without a seat, it is for the Farmer who lost his a**.<br><br><br>&nbsp;I want to state this AGAIN and AGAIN I am not against the Farmer and hold anyone who is self employed in&nbsp; high esteem&nbsp; I just want them to quit trying to play on the sympathy of the American people. <br><br><br>

 

Tunny<BR>I don't want your stinkin sympathy, and good luck on sustaining yourself on hunting and gathering. If you haven't noticed civilization has advanced slightly. As for the large amt paid to that individual, my guess is the majority of what was paid to him was in the form of CCC <U>LOANS. </U>A loan is something you payback with interest. Just making sure a wasn't getting ahead of you. We also clear and spray fence rows to keep them in check but we also have land enrolled in CRP. I don't think there is a secret Ag society that is out to destroy and exterminate wildlife.&nbsp;You seem a little bitter maybe a little jealous of your neighbor in my opinion.&nbsp;<BR>

 

<P>Whats wrong with the&nbsp;man being successful. Maybe he made a good marketing decision on the crops that he grew. He had to assume a huge amt of risk at some point. Once again you can't look at the lump sum paid to an individual farmer. Much of the SUBSIDY was probably in the form of low interest loans which is either repaid with interest or the crop, that is being held as security is forfeited.</P>

 

Do you think that Bayman and I are just making this stuff up. The individual I am referring to also has 3-4 new trucks, paid for a 400k house for his son. <br><br>No I am not in the least bit jealous , I have worked for everything I have pounding nails for 34 yrs on real framing crews.&nbsp; Didn't you just say LOW INTEREST loans , nowhere near what the rest of us pay on borrowed money nor do I see the Govt. loaning me or giving me money because alot of duma*** es over extended themselves in the real estate market. <br><br>I also am not giving you my stinkin sympathy,&nbsp;I am just stating my opinion since I thought that is what forum question or post was about. Funny I have not seen any comments referring to what mine and other business owners cost is.<br><br>You know my opinion would not change even if this person I am referring to was a decent person instead of the arrogant prick he is because of all of his money. <br><br>Still waiting for a comment on the points I listed on the previous post. Why don't you answer them item by item like I did , or am I getting ahead of you ?<br>

 

<P>Oh I forgot both him and his wife drive Mercedes.</P>

 

That is what I am talking about, always whining the poor, oh poor pitiful me. These guys just don't get it, no different than the GM workers who get laid off and the media is all over that like maybe we should send them some canned good just so they can get by. <br>What they don't tell you is that they receive 95% of their pay and all benefits during their time off, Yes this is only good for so long but in 99% of the cases they are called back in a few weeks when one of the suppliers is no longer on strike. <br>You know I am not calloused but like you said quit whining. Life is not fair but let's even out the playing field. Know what group has the most lobbyist , I am sure you will guess right<br>

 

Huge difference between gross income and net income.&nbsp; I have several farmers who have done quite well.&nbsp; However, the vast majority of my customer base have full time jobs off of the farm to help pay the bills and for healthcare.&nbsp; The majority of all of my farmers have wives who work full time jobs for the same reasons.&nbsp; Tunny and Bayman:&nbsp; You have an open invitation to come down and travel with me on my job.&nbsp; The only caveat is that you'll have to sit down in several coffee shops with me and discuss your views on farm income, subsidies and agriculture in general with the local farm population.&nbsp; It doesn't look like they will be planting in the next few weeks and most of them have returned from Florida in their Mercedes.<br>

 

it makes me sick to see you guys biching about farmers receiving subsidies. give me a damn break! all the non working lazy asses out there doing nothing every day and collecting a check and you can seriously point fingers at farmers who work their balls off day in and day out? give me a damn break! <IMG src="http://www.websitetoolbox.com/images/boards/smilies/rolleyes.gif" align=absMiddle border=0><br><br>this is quite possibly the stupidest topic i have ever seen on here<br>

 

You make it sound like all farmers do is sit on the porch, drink iced tea and collect their money from the govt.. I too work very hard for a living and I will agree if it weren't for some governmental help many farmers would not be in business today. But I caution anyone that thinks this country will survive&nbsp;without a strong farm economy. Everyone takes for granted that food will just rain out of the ceiling at Krogers. Farmers are just the tip of the largest industry in America. <BR>As for Tunny's comment on Florida.&nbsp;Been there once. Wasn't impressed.&nbsp; Duck hunting sucks there and I've got too much work to do at home!&nbsp;I will say I'm impressed you can count to 9.<BR>

 

<P>To far ahead of you, just as I thought, &nbsp;you have no answer to my posted items&nbsp;except the stupid comment of being able to count to nine. No I never said or implied that you and others don't work hard. But just like in my business there are a lot who don't.</P>

 

<P>You keep&nbsp;saying how farmers are crying about how tough things are but reading your rantings about all your hard luck makes you out to be the belly- acher.&nbsp;I guess things are tough all over!&nbsp;</P>