Pattern blown!

Discussion in 'Shotguns, Shotgunning, Ballistics & "Shooter's Tal' started by GRUNDY, Aug 19, 2005.

  1. GRUNDY

    GRUNDY New Member

    54
    0
    0
    <P style="MARGIN: 0px">Patterned my sx2 yesterday. Patterned Winchester super x drylock 12 ga. 3.5" BB HV, Fed 3.5" HV, Fed 3" HV and rem Sprtsman 3"&nbsp;standard vel. all in BB. The 3.5" loads totally stunk 40 yards was way high and left. It looked like the center was blown out. The gun will shoot the 3" Rem sportsman and 3" fed HV in BB just fine at 40 yrds, nice even pattern about 70% in 30" circle.&nbsp; The best results for both loads were with the factory modified choke. I tried the imp. cyl. and the patterns were what you would expect, a little less dense at 40 wit the 3" but VERY sparse with the 3.5's.</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">Anyone know why this would be happening? it doesn't seem to make sense to me. I suspect if the higher velocity were the culprit the 3" fed HV would pattern poor also. Could this be a wad problem? There were small marks in the base of the 3.5" wads that looked like the base had expanded unevenly. One was even torn&nbsp;a little.</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">Brian</P>
     
  2. tripleb

    tripleb New Member

    7,638
    0
    0
    <P style="MARGIN: 0px">If what you see is a notch or notches in the end of the gas seal skirt, that comes from the gas ports in the barrel.&nbsp; I'll post a pic. of mine to show you what I am talking about.&nbsp; The wad with the most damage to the wad skirt was loaded to a higher pressure than the other wad.</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">I found it more difficult to get good patterns with fast steel in 3.5" shells than in the shorter loads.&nbsp; However,&nbsp;we also found that an extended aftermarket choke, in this case, a Briley X2, patterned much better with fast steel than did the factory chokes.&nbsp; The tightest patterns with the&nbsp;Invector Plus bore&nbsp;were with the light full, but that may be too tight unless you are shooting consistently at 40 yards or further.&nbsp; The Briley X2 in improved modified gave good patterns, but not necessarily suitable for shots beyond 40 yards with the loads we tested.</P>
     

  3. GRUNDY

    GRUNDY New Member

    54
    0
    0
    <P style="MARGIN: 0px">That's exactly what the wads would look like coming from my gun. One factory wad even looked like the one on the right.&nbsp;I think it was the winchester that did it because it was a lighter load payload wise and it kicked noticeably harder than the Fed w/ a heavier paylaod, which I thought was wierd.</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">I know I've inquired about the extended chokes before but I just wanted to check the gun again before starting this year. I've been to busy fishing on the weekends to go buy an extended tube. </P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">The only thing that worries me is I have a Duck commander improved modified extended tube that really does nothing for my pattern performance. It might hold it tighter past 40 yards but I haven't checked. I have no idea of the dimensions on the browning, if I did I could compare them to briley to get an idea of how briley would pattern.</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">Brian</P>
     
  4. tripleb

    tripleb New Member

    7,638
    0
    0
    <P>Where are you located?&nbsp; If you are in the Indian Lake, St. Marys Lake, or Lima area you could try my chokes some weekend.</P>
     
  5. GRUNDY

    GRUNDY New Member

    54
    0
    0
    <P style="MARGIN: 0px">Well, I'm actually located in W. Mich. I stumbled on this site some time ago and it has been a huge wealth of knowledge. And a friendly environment. So it would take a little work for me to swing on by and try the tubes.</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">Brian</P>
     
  6. GRUNDY

    GRUNDY New Member

    54
    0
    0
    <P style="MARGIN: 0px">Update: Went to a local sprting goods here today and the guy at the gun counter claims that Briley makes the duck commander line of choke tubes for the Invector plus barrels. So, I think I'm in a pickle as for as shooting 3.5" shells go.</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">Brian</P>
     
  7. tripleb

    tripleb New Member

    7,638
    0
    0
    <P style="MARGIN: 0px">How long is the barrel on your gun?&nbsp; I haven't done any thorough testing on this idea, but I have noticed that many of the guys who have had problems getting good patterns with fast steel loads are using short barreled guns. I have a 24" barreled BPS12 3.5", and it patterned fast steel mediocre at best, even using the Briley's which patterned well from a friend's 30" barreled BPS12 3.5".&nbsp; I noticed that nearly every wad that came from his gun had all four petals splayed wide open.&nbsp; However, when shooting the same loads, often the wads from mine would not be completely splayed open.&nbsp; When that happened I usually got a subpar pattern.&nbsp; When they were splayed open, I got good patterns.</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">The only chokes I could find which would pattern fast steel well in&nbsp;my short barreled BPS&nbsp;was the .675" Terror choke and an original Pattern Master.&nbsp; The original&nbsp;PM pattern wasn't as good as the Terror, giving patterns at 40 yards in the low to mid 70's, but it was better than what I had tried up to the point of getting the Terror.&nbsp; Since I had borrowed&nbsp;the PM&nbsp;from a friend to try out, I went to Cabelas and bought a new one.&nbsp; It patterned terribly, with patterns down in the low 30" with duck loads.&nbsp; They had made some internal dimensional changes in the new ones which were not compatible with my gun or loads, and I returned it.&nbsp; Now, I am using the .675" Terror and am happy with it's performance.</P>
     
  8. GRUNDY

    GRUNDY New Member

    54
    0
    0
    <P style="MARGIN: 0px">The barrel length must be the difference. My sx2 is 26" if measured from muzzle to reciever. I know guns will pattern different but if someone has good luck with one setup chances are good that another person will be likely to have similar results.</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">I am suprised that 2" of barrel length can make that big of a difference but it sounds like the case. I will have to look into a terror tube for good 3.5 patterns.</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">What if I were to go to a 3.5" in a standard velocity like Rem Nitro 12 - 1300 FPS? Would the extra payload have trouble getting through the choke or is it more of a speed&nbsp;issue when it comes to steel shot?</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">Brian</P>
     
  9. tripleb

    tripleb New Member

    7,638
    0
    0
    <P style="MARGIN: 0px">Before you try going to a slower load, try some Kent 1 3/8 oz. 3.5" loads.&nbsp; Generally, they pattern pretty well from most guns.&nbsp; If your gun won't pattern the Kents, then something is wrong with the gun/choke, just as it was with my 24" barreled BPS.&nbsp; Some people claim it's barrel resonance problems (barrel vibrations causing bad patterns, just like it can cause bad grouping in a rifle).&nbsp; Personally, I believe it is because of the wads tipping due to higher gas pressure at the muzzle of shorter barreled&nbsp;affecting the wad release.&nbsp; It seems to be most commonly observed with 3.5" loads and fast steel.&nbsp; But, since I don't have access to high speed camera's, it's only speculation on my part.&nbsp; My short barreled BPS shot lead loads great, but only the .675" Terror made it deliver good patterns with fast steel.</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">Using the heavier, but slower 1 9/16 oz. loads will probably improve your patterns, but these loads are so slow, that I hesitate recommending anyone using them except as a last resort.&nbsp; They will work better on ducks if you use pellets of an adequately large size, than they will on&nbsp;long range geese.&nbsp; Try some Kent 1 3/8 oz. fast steel 3.5" shells first.&nbsp; If you have some buddies who will loan you 5 or 6, borrow them rather than buying a box, if you can manage it.</P>
     
  10. Ducksmasher

    Ducksmasher New Member

    85
    0
    0
    <P>I shoot a SBE with a haydel choke and have a 26 inch barrel. I shoot Kent fast steel # 3's&nbsp;1 9/16 (1400FPS). I have absolutely no pattern problem and was smashing ducks at 40 + yards last season. I tried Hevi shot and found that I had a very very tight pattern, in fact too tight especially at under 30 yard shots. I would almost pluck that poor duck before it hit the ground. Try different chokes with Kent Fast Steel ammo. I now shoot a decoying choke from Haydel and I love it. Believe it or not, it's not the extra 2 inches of barrel that make a difference, it's the choke tube you are using. Some choke tubes constrict at a much better rate and are more consistent than others. Trust me , it's the choke tube not the ammo or the barrel.&nbsp;I shot the&nbsp;Briley chokes with my SBE and just didn't like how they patterned. Kent Fast Steel is consistent in their loads and wading. So try the Haydel choke tube and Kent Fast Steel. The slower ammo is going to make that big of a difference in pattern at least not one where you will be happy.&nbsp;When you shoot the 1 9/16 kent loads your lead will be different if you go to a faster load of the same shot size. For instance, if you shoot # 2'&nbsp;1 9/16 kent 3.5 (1400 FPS)and then go to&nbsp;#2 1 3/8 Kent 3.5 (1625 FPS) your picking up 225 FPS and finding you need to compensate for your lead when you were shooting the 1400 FPS load. I was taking geese down with no problem with Kent Fast Steel #3&nbsp; 3.5 inch loads as well as ducks, thus elimatinating buying shells of different sizes, later in the season I went to T shot to compensate for the thicker plumage.&nbsp;</P>
     
  11. tripleb

    tripleb New Member

    7,638
    0
    0
    <P style="MARGIN: 0px">Ducksmasher: </P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">I looked at the Kent website, but could not find any listing for a 1400 fps. 3.5" 1 9/16 oz. load. They did list a 1300 fps. load, which probably is running 30-40 fps. slower in your gun, due the fact that they normally test the loads in a 30" barrel and slow burning powder loads usually lose about 10 fps. per inch of barrel length under 30".&nbsp; However, I have tested some Kent loads that chronographed considerably faster than listed, some 1 3/8 oz. 3.5" loads at between 1615 fps. and 1675? fps., so it's hard telling without actually chronographing them in your gun what they are really running.&nbsp; Kents are usually pretty close to advertised velocities (allowing for barrel length differences), and sometimes even faster than advertised.</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">The Haydels chokes are made by Rhino, which makes very good lead shot chokes.&nbsp; I have two Rhino chokes, a Cabelas Pass Shooting choke (.720" ID)&nbsp;and a .716" ported tube I purchased straight from Rhino for the BPS12.&nbsp; The Rhino chokes gave very even patterns, but of insufficient pellet count at 40 yards to satisfy me.&nbsp; Generally, they were running in the mid 60% level, a bit thin, but the pellets were&nbsp;well distributed.</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">I don't know if Rhino made some internal dimensional changes in their tubes for the chokes&nbsp;produced for Haydel which might make them perform better than the Rhino tubes I have.&nbsp; I have heard some good reports about the Haydels chokes, but without seeing pattern pics. or pattern&nbsp;percentages shot at a specific range, such as 40 yards, I remain hesitant in forming any opinion of them.</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P>
     
  12. tripleb

    tripleb New Member

    7,638
    0
    0
    <P>Ducksmasher: </P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">If you get a chance sometime to pattern your gun with the Haydel's choke at 40 yards, post up some pics. of the patterns, if you have a digital camera.&nbsp; Count the pellet holes, draw the 30" circle around the greatest number of holes and compute the pattern percentages.&nbsp; I have never seen anyone post any pics. of&nbsp;patterns shot with a Haydel's choke and would like to see what they are getting.<IMG src="http://www.websitetoolbox.com/images/boards/smilies/thumb.gif" align=absMiddle border=0></P>
     
  13. Ducksmasher

    Ducksmasher New Member

    85
    0
    0
    <P>got a digital camera, I will be shooting it again in a week or 2 and will send you the pics. I will be shooting 3.5 #2 1 3/8 (1625 FPS) I use brown paper, have to see how well that comes out in the pic, maybe I will use white for this purpose though. I may even use my long range Haydel choke tube and compare them.</P>
     
  14. tripleb

    tripleb New Member

    7,638
    0
    0
    <P>I think the 1625 fps. load is supposed to be 1 1/4 oz. of shot, rather than 1 3/8's.&nbsp; Drundel, on The Refuge, has counted the pellets in several different types of Kent steel shells and said they often have fewer pellets than what you would expect from the charts.&nbsp; You may need to take a couple apart to make certain your pellet count is accurate.&nbsp; If they are using fewer pellets than the charts show, it would make your pattern percentages artificially lower than they should be. The Kent shell shot charges counted by Drundel were low by up to 7% from the numbers stated in the charts.</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">&nbsp;</P> <P style="MARGIN: 0px">I just use a black felt tip marking pen to circle the pellet holes and draw the 30" circle.&nbsp; That makes the holes show up well regardless of the paper color used.&nbsp; It gets a bit tiresome, but unless you use a computer program which can read the holes from a pic., you have to count them.&nbsp; I once made the mistake of believing I could judge the pattern quality by just looking at the patterns.&nbsp; I discovered to my chagrin that patterns I believed were probably in the mid 70% range, where, in fact, often below 60%, rarely above 65%.&nbsp; After that, I now count all my pellet holes if I am trying to evaluate a choke or load's performance.</P>