? for tribleb

GRUNDY · Jul 20, 2005

Tripleb, you seem like the guy to ask. This year I may have to resort to a little pass shooting to get my waterfowl fix. The spot would lend itself to nothing longer than 60 yrds. Majority between 40-50yds. I'm shooting a 3.5 sx2 w/ 28" barrel. I've had big problems with fast 3.5 inch BB loads in the past and all the big names seem to be going ultra fast lately. Sounds like you had the best luck with terror chokes. Could you provide any insight as to choke selection

tripleb · Jul 20, 2005

60 yards is an awfully long distance to be shooting, particularly with steel shot, due to the relatively low pellet count.  You did not indicate whether your choice of BB's is for ducks or for geese, but I will assume it is for geese.   Back about 1995, a friend and I did some penetration testing using BB's in a handload of his which was chronographing over 1700 fps. at the muzzle.  We got some Lima telephone books and soaked them in water overnight.  This gave us a thickness of about 4 or 5 inches, uncompressed.  At 50 yards, the BB's blew clear through the books.  At 65 yards they only penetrated a little over 1/2".  There was such a fall off in penetration in that extra 15 yards that I decided not to use them in preference to the BBB's I had been using in my 10ga.  The BB's, in my opinion, did not allow sufficient penetration for much of an error in range estimation.   That season, my friend proceeded to use his BB load at 1700 fps. while I continued to use my BBB load at 1500 fps.  Standing side by side while pass shooting, he would repeatedly hit geese but fail to bring them down, while my BBB loads would drop them like rocks.  Later, after I got a laser range finder and had a chance to range them as they were passing over us, we discovered that we were habitually underestimating the range of the birds by an average of 20 yards.  Had they been truly 50 yard shots as we believed, his loads would have brought them down, but they were not, they were further, and his BB loads lacked the power to give the body penetration drop the birds at the longer ranges.  He has subsequently switched back to a 1500 fps. load of BBB's for his pass shooting with much improved success.   I have seen geese killed with low velocity BB's at over 100 yards, ranged with a split image optical range finder.   However, they were killed with head and neck hits and Lord only knows how many were wounded to kill those brought down.  You can usually tell a head or neck hit at long range by the bird immediately folding up and dropping toward the ground, rather than flying or gliding off some distance before folding up or landing.    I regard 50 yards as about the limit for reasonable success with steel BB's for body penetration, providing they are high velocity loads (1500fps.+).  And frankly, I have not often seen a 12ga. capable of putting sufficient quantity of high velocity BBB's in a 30" circle to be reliably effective at 60 yards.  The closest I have seen is with Kent 1 3/8 oz. loads using the .675" Terror choke, but even with that combination, the patterns are pretty thin at 60 yards.  The patterns with BB's would be sufficient for snow geese at that range, though.   In answer to your question about chokes, for a reasonably priced choke for long range shooting (>40 yards) in the Invector Plus bore of the SX2, I would try an extended Briley light full.  My friend is now using one, and the improvement in his patterns using steel 2's, BB's and BBB's over the factory chokes was amazing.  I have a .675" Terror for my 24" barreled BPS3.5" 12ga., and while it patterns much better than the Briley in my gun, I never tried it in his 30" barreled BPS3.5" 12ga, so I don't know if it is any better in the longer barrel than the Briley light full.  Frankly, the Briley extended light full patterns so well in his gun with those loads, there's not much room for improvement.

CODB · Jul 21, 2005

Triple b I read that the minimum killing energy for geese is 6 foot pounds per pellet. I read this in an article in Wildfowl I believe it was. I was wondering if you could post up a chart of muzzle velocity and pellet size with pellet energy at different ranges. I've always been a more pellet fan based on the golden BB theory of getting a lucky BB in the head or neck to kill it. However I also agree you have to have the energy to penetrate the head or neck. I'd like to see on a chart where the big drop off and energy differential starts.

tripleb · Jul 21, 2005

I'll try to find some I can link to, but personally, I put more faith in real world experiences than in tables.  My friend with the fast BB load got in trouble "calculating" his way to a solution in his desire to increase pellet count, and by extension, pattern density, by dropping in pellet size, but increasing velocity to compensate for penetration lost by dropping pellet size.   I have a table which is in the RSI loading manual which indicates a steel BBB launched at 1400 fps. will still have 9 ft.lbs. at 40 yards, 7.2 ft.lbs. at 50 yards and 5.9 ft.lbs at 60 yards.   The same table shows a steel T at the same muzzle velocity and ranges has 11.1 at 40, 9 at 50, 7.3 at 60 and 6 ft.lbs. at 70 yards.

GRUNDY · Jul 22, 2005

Tripleb,   Thanks for the input. I know 60 is pushing the envelope with steel. Do you have any experience with hevishot? I've heard some outlandish claims with people using that stuff. Do you have any info on the Duck commander line of chokes for the invector+ barrels. This is what I currently use in an improved modified and have adequate patterns to 40 yards using 3" 1 3/8 oz. BB shot going about 1300fps according to remington. Any fast shell >1400fps over 3" will not pattern out of my gun with the factory or the Duck commander chokes but I have not patterned it past that and have personally never shot geese at 50yards, and then on the rare occasion. Hevi shot might be the ticket for my current situation. I patterned hevi B size out of the duck commander at 40 and had adequate patterns with it. But once again did not pattern it past 40 as I do not usually ahoot that far. I know at 40 the hevi B blew through 3/4 plywood and teh steel barely stuck into the first layer of plywood. So if it can hold a pattern I suppose if I'm able to put the pattern on goose it would fall.   I guess the questions could be solved adequately if I could find the time to hit the pattern board in the near future. If I do I will post the results.

tripleb · Jul 22, 2005

I have had very little experience with Hevishot, just helped a friend work up some loads with it.  Most who use it report very good performance using IC to about Modified with it.  Those who shoot geese under 40 yards generally are pleased with #4 Hevishot, and those using #2 Hevishot say they get reliable kills (if they can hit the geese) out to about 70 yards.  Tony or Ohio Wildfowler have both shot a lot of it and could answer your questions about it better than can I.   The fellow who has developed the Tungsten Super Shot has sent me some shells for test firing to see if the light loads will cycle an SBE under cold conditions. Big Mexican will be furnishing the test gun for the test which we hope to do after shooting some SC Sunday.  This stuff is so dense, #5 TSS will shoot through 3/8" plywood at 70 yards.  He's hoping to target the guys who want to shoot the small bore guns, over and unders, and those who are recoil sensitive, but want maximum terminal performance.   I haven't used the DC chokes, but have used factory, Briley X2, Pattern Master, Wad Wizard, Rhino and the .675" Terror choke in my 24" barreled BPS 3.5".  Of all the chokes I have used with fast steel, the only ones I would consider for long range shooting in the Invector Plus bores of the SX2 or Browning would be the extended Brileys in improved mod. or light full, in a barrel longer than my 24" BPS, or the .675" Terror.   However, if you can borrow a choke to test, you are better off than buying one that won't work.  Many times, some guns will shoot certain shells better than they do others.  I have seen consistently good patterns in my guns with Kent faststeel (with the proper choke), but mediocre patterns with Remington fast steel loads.  Borrow a few shells from friends and see if any of them pattern well out of your gun and chokes.   There was some talk earlier about getting together for an OW patterning session, but it's probably too late to schedule anything along those lines at this date.  But, if you and some friends who have similar guns, but different chokes, or just want to try some of each others shells, it's well worth the effort to get together for the testing if you find a combo that performs to your satisfaction.

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